I love Digital Cards. I play all the apps, I buy a lot in game with real money, and I write a similar blog to this one about Digital, all because I find it so interesting. Unlike many of the people who spend a lot of money on Digital, I started off as a Physical card collector, and still classify myself in that way over anything. I am a person who has a foot firmly in both worlds, and I can testify that they are not as mutually exclusive as people make them out to be.
As a whole, digital is quickly becoming a new ambassador for tens of thousands of new collectors, with new users joining each of the four apps on a daily basis. Where it looks like the hobby is declining at a very steady rate on the physical side, digital seems to be increasing in population by the double digits. If you have any desire to continue seeing new products and new cards continue to hit the market on a regular basis, this is a very good thing.
Its a good thing because the hobby needs new people – any people. For the main companies involved in the hobby, debt is a regular thing. Topps has over 100 million, Upper Deck owes the IRS about the same amount, and Panini would be in the same spot if they didnt have support from Italy. Sports cards are getting more and more expensive to produce and sell, and there are fewer people around to buy them each year. That is the definition of a money pit, and interactions with the leagues and players are only getting more difficult and more expensive.
Because of how much money digital can generate 24 hours a day, with no retail space overhead, no warehouse space overhead, no physical production cost, no chasing down players for autographs, and the ability to produce on demand content, its a dream. They can literally operate a card business and not have any of the production limitations that the physical card team does.
For those of you who are familiar, the creation of a physical product begins months, if not YEARS in advance. For digital, that could be a matter of weeks, days or even hours. Its the difference between building an episode of the Simpsons and building an episode of South Park. One takes multiple months, one takes exactly one week. That gives a lot of flexibility in content and every element of the product. Plus, they dont have to pay for signatures or relics, or worry about redemptions.
Based on this situation, its easy to see why each of the companies who makes cards (and some who dont), are lining up to build card collecting games for IOS and Android. Its a golden goose with potential to turn into golden geese. Not only that, with technology taking leaps forward regularly, it presents an opportunity to do “the next big thing” on a much more frequent basis. The last "next big thing" in sports cards happened in 1996 with relic cards. The 20th anniversary is coming up this year. Wow, that is a long, long time.
I get why this is a debate. If people want to live in a simpler time, where there were four sets a year, and people put baseball cards in albums without fear of condition sensitivity, that’s on them. They are going to be waiting a lifetime for things to go back to that.
In the same vein, I see it as counterproductive to continually disparage those who see digital for the real power it represents. Digital is the future, and there isnt much a few blog posts will be able to do to change that. However, that doesnt mean physical wont be there too in some capacity. Its not a guarantee, no doubt about it. Clearly, if trends continue, physical will eventually take a back seat because of cost to profit ratios, and its not just collectors leaving the hobby as the main factor. League licenses are becoming exponentially more expensive to maintain. Player related content is becoming more valuable to all sorts of people, including the league. This means relics are more difficult to obtain and more costly to acquire. Even if more and more people came back to the hobby, it might not be enough in the long run. Every aspect of producing physical sports cards is rising in cost too fast to overcome.
I also want to make sure we talk about this whole thing about “real” cards versus “fake” cards. Calling digital cards fake isnt really accurate. Digital cards are not meant to be “real” any more than the WWE is meant to be real. Its entertainment, its an experience, and its just supposed to be fun for the user. Its NOT designed to be an investment opportunity, even though some treat it that way.
Lets look at digital this way. Its basically a competition with 10,000 people to be the best at a few different parts of the game, and the cards themselves are just a means to an end. We know they can be taken away, we know they arent tangible, but the entertainment value is very, very, very real. The competition is very, very, very real.
Its obvious that physical card collectors rarely see digital as something they could ever spend money on, mainly because I think they are looking at it through the wrong lens. They look at it the way they look at their own collection, and we all know how passionate that can get. They see card collecting as something you keep and something you hold onto, as well as the entertainment of completing the action of collecting.
Digital is just about the entertainment of completing the collecting action, as well as the competition ingrained in the setup. There is REAL value and money involved, because this competition is fierce. The apps are designed to foster this mentality, and like with any competitive atmosphere, people will want to win. That’s digital. My opinion is that its not meant or designed to be something you hoard with the future potential for payoff years in the future. Its not meant to be something you hand down to your kids. Its just supposed to be fun, and Topps has found quite the way to monetize it. Good for them. They need it.
Another one of people’s main complaint about digital’s existence is that they some how feel it takes away quality from the brands they love. Collectors who have been in the hobby for many years see new designs for Topps Series 1, or a shift in the way the photos look on the cards, and they think that the brand continuity between physical and digital is to blame. I see how that argument comes into focus, as people expect that the two teams are tied together. Its not a stretch at all.
In fact, the digital team has its own graphic artists, separate from the artists that create the physical brands. The physical design is created long before the digitization is built, and from what BOTH sides of this say, they work completely separately. Here is Jeff Zachowski, from the physical side:
and Neil Kleid from the digital side:
The designs are the way they are because physical thought that was the best choice of the submitted designs available, and digital uses it to maintain parity. Pretty simple. If you dont like the 2016 Series 1 design, that’s fine. Dont blame digital though, as Bunt isnt the reason that it looks the way it does. After ripping through almost a case worth of Jumbos by myself, I really like the design. I think its quite modern and sleek, and I guess that’s why people dont like it.
Lastly, I have heard people talk about fostering addiction and holding Topps responsible as an enabler for people to spend money they dont have. I swear to god, this is something people use as a dig on digital. Im really just putting this in here so that you can marvel at its ridiculous and hypocritical nature. I wonder if the same people have that similar contempt for Bars and Casinos as well. Addiction is real, but in the end, its the individual who is ultimately responsible for doing anything. Last time I checked, anyone can walk into a card shop and put cases on a credit card. Do we hold contempt for Blowout or DA for making it more accessible? If I wanted to, I could rack up a nice little bill with a group breaker during the time I wrote this article. I dont see many people commenting how they enable the wrong behavior. I see people referring to it as gambling, but no where have I seen the ridiculous argument that doesnt hold the user responsible for their actions.
Let me close by reinforcing how both elements of sports cards can coexist in a fluid way. There is zero reason to pit them against each other or loathe their existence. If you dont like one or the other, that’s fine! You dont have to play and no one is forcing you to rip packs at your local shop either. Lamenting the success of one over the other is such a losing proposition, mainly because everyone seems to be missing the main element that digital brings to the hobby – growth. Not only growth, but potential for enormous growth. If you dont think that is a special thing, its time to realize that card collecting is not some VIP club. You cant and shouldnt want to keep people out. With the way things are going today, its better to adopt a “more the merrier” perspective, instead of looking to find excuses to exclude.
All I am saying is that its fine to not want to be involved in digital, but to paint it as a villain is not seeing the forest or the trees.
Where to begin! I’ll try to go in the order it appears in the post.
You mention debt being a “regular thing” for these card companies. Is the debt for making physical cards or is it to develop the apps? Seems like it’d be a key distinction to make.
You mention that sports cards have become more and more expensive to create. While that might be true, would have been nice to link to a source here. How do you know that to be true?
In paragraph 4 you seem to imply digital cards are cheaper to produce. Are they? Maybe, maybe not? 30% of in app purchases goes straight to Google and Apple. Plus licensing, plus employees, plus development, plus streaming in live stats for the sports games, etc, etc, I don’t think it’s nearly the cost savings you seem to think it is.
Again, some citation as to the cost of physical vs digital here would of been nice.
Besides, aren’t 99.9% of users playing these apps for free anyways? There may be less people collecting physical sports cards but physical currently generates a ton more revenue (read on).
“Its a golden goose with potential to turn into golden geese.”
If this quote was true about digital cards, wouldn’t the Panini apps have more then 5 people on them at a given time? The apps certainly aren’t a golden goose for Panini and read further to see why they aren’t for Topps yet either.
“Not only that, with technology taking leaps forward regularly.”
This is an “expensive” quote you used here. As technology changes, Topps and Panini will need to keep up. That sounds expensive and something better suited for the likes of EA Sports, Take Two Interactive, Activison and other more well funded game makers.
“I see it as counterproductive to continually disparage those who see digital for the real power it represents.”
Who is doing this? Citations? And isn’t this hypocritical especially considering the paragraph that was JUST before this quote? (“If people want to live in a simpler time, where there were four sets a year, and people put baseball cards in albums without fear of condition sensitivity, that’s on them. They are going to be waiting a lifetime for things to go back to that.”)
You again mention that sports cards are so expensive to produce.
Aren’t apps expensive too? Look at the R&D of all the top app makers. Again, another thing that maybe needed a citation?
“Clearly, if trends continue, physical will eventually take a back seat because of cost to profit ratios.”
I just looked at many different websites that project the revenue Topps makes on their apps. Most projections are in the $250,000 a month range for SWCT.
While that seems like maybe it’s a lot, remember 30% goes to Apple/Google right off the top. 10-15% goes straight to licensing. Don’t they have offices in New York & Florida? Sounds expensive.
Even if by miracle they could net $100,000 on SWCT per month…… that’s 1.2 million a year in profit. I’m trying to see how this is a golden goose when projected revenue of the physical card side is consistently in the $250-$400 million a year JUST FOR TOPPS.
Topps Company owner Michael Eisner once made $200 million in one year as CEO at Disney. So you can see how $1.2 million for some app is pennies.
Even if you put a generous multiple on all 4 apps Topps has it’s hard to see them making a few million a year off these apps.
Aren’t the sports apps seasonal as well? Revenue must drop off the table for Bunt and Huddle when the season ends. Another thing that would have been nice to explore.
Even if all 4 apps cleared a million in revenue a month it would only be $48 million in revenue for the entire year. (which they are nowhere near but just go with it) Now do the calculations subtracting all their costs. How are these golden gooses? It just doesn’t make sense. TOPPS probably does $48 million in revenue IN KEY MONTHS for physical sports card releases.
I’m only about half way through the article but I’ll quit.
You put the cart before the horse in this article. They have the potential to be gooses, but they aren’t EVEN CLOSE to that now, even by the most generous revenue projections.
I think the debate is whether it’s sustainable or not. There’s no doubt there’s growth & popularity, but does interest fade in later years much like traditional card collecting did? Certainly the competition/bragging right aspect of the digital cards can hold people’s attention, but that wore thin on collectors of physical cards too. Other app makers, console game makers face the same challenges. It all looks so easy when things are going well.
If making digital card apps was easy Panini’s would be a success. Surely even Upper Deck & Leaf would have successful one’s too. Even Beckett, COMC and other larger companies could make one too. Bottom line is that it’s not easy. In fact, it’s harder than making physical cards. We know that because Topps hired executives (for the first time in several years) with major experience working at EA Sports & other billion dollar companies. Topps had to attract talent like that with some equity stake in the business too. Given that, I’m not surprised they’ve achieved a level of popularity & success. By contrast, most of the talent working on physical cards are entry-level type positions that are basically working for free given that the offices are located in one of the most expensive places on the planet.
So while Topps’ has made making mobile apps look ‘easy’ … it’s not. And because of that, there’s no guarantee the success lasts or is sustainable. People should be less focused on their popularity today – and be debating if they’ll be popular in another 4 or 5 years … or if Topps can afford to retain/attract the talent required to do so. That’s not going to be easy.
First off, I know who you are, and I find it very interesting that you chose not to disclose your name. If you are going to comment on this with some very important criticism, why not at least put a name on it? At least own up to your commentary.
Secondly, im not a journalist, and Im not writing a school essay, so im not understanding why you come to this site expecting citations. You dont want to take my opinions at face value? Fine, not a big deal. This is a fun experience of writing for me, Im not trying to be something I am not.
Lastly, you make a lot of good points. Im not disagreeing with you on some of the stuff you said. Its clear the apps could eventually be something that blows up even further than you would expect. However, I think its also clear that the cost of producing sports cards is becoming more expensive based on the industry professionals that I have spoken to, and you have spoken to on twitter. They also told you that league licensing is more expensive, player content is growing in cost exponentially, and logic would say the same thing too.
You often comment on how the hobby is declining, and from all the information I can see, digital’s user base is increasing. With more and more of the population using their smart phone as a necessity to live their life, I would say the investment in digital is far more important than you believe. As more people leave the hobby due to any number of reasons, digital gains more paying users daily.
You say 99.9% of the users are free users, and you would be wrong just from my personal experience of playing along. Its a high percentage of users that are free, but putting it that high is so far from left field I dont even know where to start. You clearly have an agenda, just as I do, and I think yours stems from your lack of confidence that a “bubble gum” company can put this stuff together in a way that makes it sustainable. Just based on this slight, its obvious that its time to take a deeper look and see that the card people dont run the apps. The new VP of Digital comes straight from a background that fits perfectly in with this scene, and should have no issue catching up if his experience dictates anything.
I love the apps, they are fun, they are addictive, and I still see them as the future of this hobby. You can keep trying to find ways to pull the support beams out from the ceiling, but I think you will find that it is going to be tougher than you think to pull the roof down.
I have left my name on this post and declined on the 1st comment only because I didn’t want it to be seen as self promotion. I also have a somewhat unique last name and would rather other things come up in search results besides dorky sports card stuff, but it’s probably too late for that now.
Just from my brief observations it appears you are looked upon as an expert in Digital cards. You have a separate website devoted to it. My desire to see more citations were to help the reader (me) back up the arguments you were making.
The argument that physical sports cards were getting more expensive to make was probably accurate, but directly comparing them to digital is where I took issue and wanted to see more evidence.
It doesn’t really matter to me what % are paying to play the app. If 100% of the people who play SWCT are paying to play….. the apps are still in growth mode and they are nowhere near surpassing physical cards in terms of revenue.
According to Google, the SWCT is the 174th highest gross app on Android, which is actually kind of impressive. But a quick scan of the top 500 and none of the other Topps app were there. That’s not good and the seasonal sports apps may struggle to make money or break even in the off season.
The competition Topps faces here is immense as well. They aren’t competing with Panini and Upper Deck. Those guys are lightweights. EA Sports, Konami, Disney, all have Star Wars apps that gross more revenue then the Topps SWCT app.
Besides, if/once the apps reach scale who knows what other challenges and costs that brings. That’s another thing that would have been nice to explore. Lots of these app makers are public companies so it would actually be remarkably easy to dig into what some of these top apps do and don’t make.
I often comment the hobby is declining but I think people choose not to see the positive things I comment on. There was a podcast in August where I sing Topps praises about their apps. I enjoy the apps myself. It’s when I see misinformation about the financial state of the apps that I think it’s at least important to present an opposite opinion.
Which I think is where the disconnect here is. You think because I’m questioning the financial state surrounding the apps that it’s me trying “to pull the support beams out from the ceiling” of digital cards. Which couldn’t be further from the truth.
I’ve sung the praises of the Topps apps because I actually use them and they are fun. I’ve denounced the Panini apps because I’ve actually used them and they are horrible for now. I love the Upper Deck ePacks and have spent hundreds buying cards and may spend thousands on the single cards that hit COMC daily as people transfer cards and sell them way too cheap.
Twitter is a very dangerous animal because it’s the 140 character sound bite that plays well. Negativity plays well on Twitter. I’m assuming that is the only place you get information about me. You could probably dig through every piece of content, video, and website I’ve created about cards and find that 99.9% of it is positive.
Seeing how this was Sports Card “Uncensored” I thought I could cut loose on here! I certainly wasn’t trying to pull the roof down on digital cards. I’ve actually been trying to find out why Topps doesn’t combine the two divisions. I found that opening packs on the Topps app and UD ePacks is actually as fun as opening physical packs.
As mentioned prior, your post makes sense, I get the criticisms you are saying, and I would guess that Topps is very much understanding of the market they are in.
My post was meant SOLELY as a criticism of the debate between physical and digital cards, not an analysis of Topps vs major players in the app world. Topps does not have the budget or the personnel to compete with the likes of King, EA, or the like. At least they dont, yet. They are clearly one of many card companies recognizing the potential of the digital market, and how much more potential it has to grow over that in a physical market. As a result of that potential, they are ramping up, not scrambling to figure out how to make ends meet.
As your brother mentioned in a previous post, they hired their new VP away from EA, which shows they WANT to eventually compete on that level. As you are aware, EA has been doing this for multiple decades, and have been involved with mobile for years before Topps. That doesnt mean that Topps doesnt belong in the same breath. Now, in certain seasonal situations, Topps’ apps have been atop the IOS charts and consistently perform among the best sports apps there are. I get that isnt where Candy Crush is, but the appeal of the sports apps hasnt quite hit that level yet from what it seems.
I am NOT an expert in any way, I am a fan. I am a fan who thinks what Topps has put together far exceeds just about anything that has happened on the physical side in years. Is Digital ready to take the main seat at the table? NO WAY. They are not QUITE there yet. However as we progress, and the technology builds, I have a feeling that might change. Sports licensing is a slippery slope, and I dont see physical cards as a sustainable venture long term. It just cant work the way it is heading. As argued in my post, declining populations, increasing costs, and more difficult processes to get approvals and player content is hamstringing everyone, not just Topps.
Digital doesnt have to deal with that in the same way, and they dont have to actually produce any cards. From what I have gathered around the industry, production seems to be #2 on the list of shitty situations behind league and player autograph/relic content and licensing stuff.
Overhead associated with physical just cant compare to the minor investment needed on the digital side. Even if Apple / Google takes 30% off the top, the sheer volume potential far makes up for any delta. The issue, as it is with any company right now, is budget. If Topps could invest more, I would have to believe they would be able to compete on a higher level with physical in just about every way.
Again, if I had to make a choice of which realm of cards to invest in, its not going to be the physical side. My post was a direct response to those who thought that digital’s existence was somehow responsible for the decline on the physical side. I might not have the skills to be a true journalist, or the desire, but I know that argument needed a response.
Count me out of the digital card thing. I recently added a “-huddle” in my player search on ebay as I was beginning to see too many huddle digital card auctions show up in the listings.
More power to those that like it though.
I am on the side of not wanting to spend money on digital cards, but I didn’t know there was a sizable portion of people blaming it on the decline of physical cards until I read your article and did a little research. I hope both thrive and continue the hobby for a long time. I just could never get the same excitement.
My experience comes from MTG, when they introduced MTGO/MTG Online and a lot of my playing buddies turned it into a ~50/50 time split between the physical/digital sides. I believe there was an option to turn the digital cards into physical ones (by completing a set or something like that), but the increase of players devoting more and more time to MTGO was actually one of the reasons I stopped playing.
I just hope the two can co-exist where the digital side does not ‘take away’ a population of the physical market. I understand the need to innovate and give the younger generation yet another reason to enjoy the hobby. From the people I am close to in the hobby, none of them have tried the app or have the desire to, and I believe it is strictly because wanting a tangible ‘thing’ to show for the money they spend.
This whole thing may be moot if the card co’s don’t get their stuff together.
I spent some of my free Panini Dunk! points on a pack last night – first card said “loading….” for 10 minutes. Hit the flip button, I got a card back and then hit the flip button to see the front. Swiped to the next card, more “loading….” for minutes. Glad I didn’t pay any real money for the lack of experience. Gridiron same experience but not nearly as bad of wait on the “loading….” screens (those cards usually come up within 15 secs if they don’t show right away).
Topps Bunt – why bother? 1 month since 2016 topps ser 1 released, spring training well underway, exhibition games starting Monday. no 2016 cards to be found outside of long odds among 2015 cards that are useless. Why aren’t there packs of 2016 cards available yet? Did topps pretty much abandon the app or are there tons of suckers still wasting coins on 2015 cards? i’m in coin accumulation mode waiting for the 2016 cards.
UD (gasp!) is the only one who seems to have a good experience app going right now as their free packs open right up and cards display right away when you click to view the next card in the pack. Unfortunately it’s hockey so I won’t consider spending any actual money with that app.
Bunt 2016 goes live the week before the season starts. Not sure how you got to Topps “abandoning the app” when they release cards every day? Not to mention the spring training card set this week.
This is the way it’s been for 4 years. Nothing new.
These things are simply digital pictures. I don’t even want to post the word that starts with the letter c. Just want to point my finger out to the people who collect these images, laughing my head off after falling on the floor until I die. 😆 How much money do you want to spend on graphics? These have to be the biggest joke I will ever find out about in life. Why don’t I just take photos of all the cards in the sets, and have the whole set just like that. Ohhhhh, priceless!!!!!