I was driving into work today, I heard an advertisement for a card show that happened last weekend. The ad must have been accidentally put into rotation again, but it got me thinking about any residual draw that card shows still have. I have commented in the past that card shows have become a complete afterthought in this hobby and I still believe that. In fact, even if I had heard this ad BEFORE the show, I still wouldn’t have gone. I have some pretty specific reasons why, and I want to share them with you. I think a lot of collectors have come to feel the way I do, and its time that show organizers start taking note.
Price
When it comes to card prices, places with overhead costs will never be able to compete with places have minimal overhead cost. Its why eBay prices are usually the best around. You also have a much larger audience, so there is a greater ability to make money on a card that would normally sit for years on a shop’s shelf. As a direct result, paying for table space at a card show leads to horrific pricing in many cases, where the proprietor has to hike up prices to near ridiculous levels just to make back their money. In similar instance, because the unholy price bible runs so rampant at shows, there is a good chance that said seller will have to whip out his Beckett before selling anything. Therefore, when you can pretty much find any given card at any given time on eBay for the best price on the planet, going to a show to BUY cards is pretty much irrelevant.
Fakes
One of the main reasons I will not be going back to a show any time soon has to do with the sheer number of fakes present at every single table. Whether its fake patches, fake autos, or even fake cards, they are absolutely everywhere. Unlike many of the message boards where you can change people’s minds and show them the error of their ways, it is literally impossible to make a case with a show vendor. Its better to walk away. However, that is also the main issue with many tables, the fakes attract attention, and the buyers at the shows can be even more uniformed than some of the people on eBay who bid on all sorts of ridiculous cards that are fake beyond a doubt. When you know that the show organizers wont step in to regulate their attendees, and you cant change the minds of the people who are selling, why bother going? It will just be an exercise in frustration. To give you an example, the last show I went to about nine months ago was so scummy and terrible that I had to walk out. Although the venue was fine, the fakes had infested the place like a virus. They may not have been at every table, but there were so many that it was obvious that I needed to leave.
Venue
Not every place is the national convention in a nice civic center with all the amenities that come with it. I get that its tough to find inexpensive locations to run a show, but there are certain places where you just should not go. Dingy places turn off customers, and when there are no customers things don’t sell, and when things don’t sell, prices go up. See the vicious circle? You might as well just spend the higher prices off the bat to avoid me walking into a waterlogged motel suite and walking right out without looking around. Im not saying that it needs to be the Ritz Carlton, but don’t make me feel like I need a tetnus shot just walking in the place.
People
The one reason that shows are even as relevant as they are these days stems from the fact that they are still the best place to meet and trade with other collectors. However, what I have found is that the people behind the tables seem to be a collection of people scraped from the bottom of the barrel of the hobby, those that have lost the spark that comes from a fun pasttime like card collecting. Due to the recession, many of these people have become even worse, trying to squelch that last dollar out of every single customer that comes by, and doing with a piss poor attitude. I may be a ranting and raving lunatic on this blog, but in person I do not act like I am anything less than excited to interact with anyone. There are people who comment on this blog who have met me in person, and I guarantee that although I spew a lot of venom on this site, I am usually a pretty nice and calm person to talk with. At a card show, the people who want me to spend the money I have are completely the opposite. They are standoff-ish, arrogant, and act like curmudgeons in every sense of the word. Like they are doing ME a favor by showing up. Guess what? Ill take my money elsewhere, jerk. Not only that, but these are the same people that refuse to move and adapt to the current times, lecturing customers when they bring up eBay and the online explosion of the hobby. They cant believe its not 1995 all over again, and they will not hesitate to let you know that their 1989 Donruss Griffey IS worth high book because that’s what Beckett says.
Opportunity Cost
Most shows happen over the weekend, and for a lot of us, the weekend is a time where we want to relax. Shopping can be quite relaxing, but only if it doesn’t require us to drive 8 hours into the boonies to a crappy community center for 8 tables. Because time is becoming more and more valuable, its tough to justify driving to a far away shop, let alone a far away show. Ebay is available 24/7 and it can be accessed in one’s birthday suit if need be, and that is why its hard to see why these shows still exist. I think the one way to justify the opportunity cost for going to a show is to offer something that isnt offered other places. Do the group case breaks, do a sponsored pack/box war, get a trade area going, do a live auction, do a silent auction, have someone sign autographs, who cares. Do something that rewards me for showing up. If you cant offer that, ill stay at home where I should be to begin with. I rarely go out without my wife and son these days, and that would definitely continue unless there is something huge like there will be in Houston come january.
Selection
Anyone who has been to a show in the last five years knows that many shows are overwhelmingly filled with vintage collectors. You have your sporadic tables of modern wax dealers and high end sellers, but there is always a lot of vintage to wade through before you get anywhere. I think that because so many people who seek out shows are older people who refuse to adapt to eBay times, modern collectors can feel out of place. If someone really wanted to stage a true coup, they would offer a modern only show, with a group break and all the things I mentioned above. I have been considering organizing a San Antonio area collector night at a local shop here and do something like that, but the time has been unavailable with all of the exotic diseases Noah has brought home from day care. Who knows, maybe that will change soon.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand why people still go to shows. However, as disposable income continues to be affected by the state of the economy, that group will get smaller and smaller. Unless shows change their approach to include more “nowhere else but here” draws to the event, I have a feeling that the national convention will be the last of its kind. Even the famed Twinsfest card show in Minneapolis has shrunk considerably, and I remember that being the most ridiculous show ever as a kid. It only goes to show how things have changed, and I am saying that it may not even be that bad of a thing to have in this hobby.
Dont hold your breath about day care. My daughter is almost 2 and it seems weekly comes home with something new. Rumor has it that the Plague is next week and Scarlet Fever the week after.
As far as the shows go, I both agree and disagree with you. I agree in the cesspool sense, as some of the people here in metro Detroit are indeed as crooked as they get. But I’ve also made some great connections and friends from going to local shows, and that is usually worth the 3 days of quarantine when I get home.
I do also set up at shows from time to time, and am usually one of the only modern vendors. I am doing a Thanksgiving weekend show, as I have for the last 10 years, and rarely make less than $2000 in the 3 days. All I do is low end modern (2000ish to present). I dont rape people on prices, I negotiate without hesitation and I give away a bunch of stuff to kids who are there while there parents are spending money at my table. To me, thats what a show experience should be like
Man an all-modern show with group breaks and pack wars would be incredible.
When I was growing up in the hobby I remember there were mall shows and community center shows within 15 minutes of my house seemingly every other week, and they were awesome because eBay didn’t exist (or had just started) and shows were where you went to get cards at low book or below because brick-and-mortar shops were still selling everything at high book.
Now, like you said, shows don’t seem worth the time. Usually the wax prices are still considerably better than stores, but they are nowhere close to the deals you get online at Blowout and ATL. And don’t even bother with singles. I can’t get enough of asshole dealers trying to sell slabbed junk wax rookies like they’re ’52 Mantles. Plus I just hate the vibe that so many sellers give off, which is, “Why are you looking at my incredibly valuable shit? You’re under 60 years old so clearly you have no clue what you’re even looking at. Go away.”
As an aside: Whenever I see a dealer bust out their Beckett I just laugh. I haven’t had a Beckett book in my possession in 6 or 7 years because their fairy tale values are meaningless when I can search on eBay, find 20 of the exact card I’m looking for and get a card’s real life value for free in less than 30 seconds.
Of all the things in this post that made me chuckle, the day care disease merry-go-round drew the loudest laugh because I know what you mean. Ah, the joys.
Not to hijack, but Joe from the D, you’ll be at Gibraltar in Mt. Clemens this weekend? I am going to try to swing by, we’ll be down there. How can I find you at the show to say hey?
Card shows in Iowa are getting farther and farther between and there are not many dealers at them, but I do still enjoy them. Around here the prices can be as cheap or cheaper than online. You just have to know what to buy online and sell at the shows and vice verca. Also you find cards at shows you wouldn’t think to look for online. Cheap cards are a waist of money and time to by online, so that is another reason for shows. Busting boxes at shows is also fun because you can show off what you pulled and then sell or trade it for something better. I get all the bad parts, because I see it first hand, but if cards become solely online then I am out, cards are no fun unless you have people to share them with. Posting breaks online is fun to a point, but you really don’t know them and they really don’t care what you pulled.
I agree with you in that most shows have changed. I am always excited to go to a show but i am always dissappointed when i leave. It kind of rehashes my childhood when i would go with my father. I live in Raleigh, North Carolina and there is a quarterly show that has 100+ tables but it always ends up being a dissapointment. Because all the dealers are somewhat local it’s always the same dealers selling the same stuff. I look for singles of only a few popular players so its difficult. Because Raleigh is surrounded by so many colleges they slam the local schools and athletes down your throat.
One other thing that annoys the helll out of me is the “bargain” bins. I think many dealers are lazy because they think i want to search the unorganized box of 3000 singles. They need to do a better job of separating cards by team or player. They do this, maybe i would take a look at what they have.
“Dealers” need to get a better understanding of cyberspace and adapt. Ebay and other online sites set the prices, not Beckett. Imagine if Best Buy and Target priced almost everything different online vs. what is in the store (and yes, sometimes things are priced differently online then in the store, but that is usually by design).
I can’t really disagree with you more. I find just the opposite at card shows.
Price
I find good deals at shows. I find the prices are prices are pretty much the same as ebay minus the shipping. Plus most guys will gice an even bigger break when you buy lots of stuff.
People
When I go to a show I usually have a kid in tow. I have never been to a show with a kid when I didn’t have multiple sellers give them free stuff. Even if the free stuff is junk it makes them happy. A pack of opening Day is definatly enough to satisfy a 6 year old. I would say 90% of the sellers I have met at shows I carried on conversations with about something long before any talk of a purchase came up. Most of the time I end up at a booth way longer than I should just cause I’m talking babseball to a fellow fan.
Venue
I would guess that 99% of the card shows I have ever been to have been in a shopping mall. It works out great cause I can bring the wife with me. She can go shopping for clothes while I look at cards. This gets me out of standing outside of a dressing room anticipating having to give an answer to a loaded question.
Selection
The last show I went to had multiple booths set up with nothing but patches and autos. I’m more of a vintage guy though so unlike you I passed these guys up and went straight to the vintage stuff. I would guess the shows I have been to are about 60/40 vintage. (although I was at a show in St Louis last year that had no modern booths but did have a modern wax booth)
I have a local Mall show that comes around 4 times a year, and for me it is the best place to get vintage cards at low end cost. Yes there are dealers there that sell for dollars that are stupid, but the one guy sells good if not mint condition vintage at 5-15 and they are stars, I picked up a 1953 Dom Dimaggio which I was thinking of getting graded because it lookes so good for 18.00 it was 20.00 but after I told the guy I named my son after Dom and Joe Dimaggio he did go down 2 dollars, and did not look in beckett. There are good dealers and bad you just got to find that one with the personallity.
Last Card Show I went to was in 2007. Ebay is it for me. When they started charging 5-7 dollars to get in, I knew I was out
M@,
my tables are about 2 rows behind the snack bar. I’ll have 4 showcases w/ higher end stuff, 2 tables of “bargain boxes” and a small tv w/ a PS3 hooked up playing Madden.
If you’re looking for anything special, drop me a line @ slugger3469@yahoo.com
Sorry to steal the post Gellman!
Card shows are too local to generalize. The internet has indeed made this card collecting community closer and easier to collect on the whole. However, a local collecting base and the existence of a good show promoter/organizer will largely determine what kind of show experience you’re going to get. I’m afraid I may not be able to speak for people living in smaller markets, but personally, I’ve now lived and attended/worked shows in three of the largest sports markets in the country (Chicago, Boston, and now Los Angeles/OC). In each of these markets, I’ve been able to find good shows to attend. The biggest key is frequency.
Today’s card show definitely have a place in the collecting world. A well organized and show with at least a monthly schedule becomes a regular highlight in a collector’s calender. After moving to the LA area within the last couple of years, I eventually got around to searching out the LCS in my area. With the aide of the internet, I drove from storefront to storefront only to learn that the recession had killed off almost every card shop in the area. To this date, I’ve found only 2, one of which survives primarily because he owns the building he’s set up in and only really has property taxes and utilities as overhead. I did also find, however, a thriving bi-weekly card show that operated a bit of a drive away, but is quite worth it. Due to it’s frequency, this show has many regular dealers and is able to draw a regular crowd. After all, everyone knows when the show is, so no need to check a show calender! What is best about the shows is that you have the opportunity to see/purchase cards that don’t often make it onto eBay. As convenient as the bay is, there are just too many cards in the world. Too many to list on eBay that is. Most collectors at this point have accumulated more cards than they’d like to admit and there is just too much to do in this world to list the ones not in our personal collection on eBay. Dealers face this same problem, just tenfold, allowing for an inventory at a show to differ quite differently than what’s on eBay. I’ve talked with many of the dealers at the show and indeed, this is where the local card shops have gone, since renting a table is much cheaper than renting a storefront. Card shows are what the card shop was in the 90s.
Anyways, this response has gone long enough. For more commentary,just click through to my blog for the full response.
The internet has made almost EVERY collectible hobby irrelevant! I am also big in to cigars and cigar smoking, and the price difference between brick-and-mortar stores and the internet is even more staggering than with cards. I’ve been careful not to make the mistake of getting close with any cigar store owners!
My problem with baseball cards is that I truly enjoy my local shop. The owners are nice, and I almost feel guilty not going. Of course, they stop caring about me the second I stop spending, I’m sure, but it still had a nice ‘neighborhood’ feel that no online deal can replicate. Of course, as I say that I realized it’s been three months since I last went to the shop, and I have no immediate desire to go back.
As for shows – why pay to sell to a very limited audience when you can reach the entire world in the internet for (basically) free? Makes no financial sense. I’m fortunate to have a decent weekly card show (to which I also have not attended in three or four months), but it’s in a cramped “conference room”, has 10 tables (max), and is in a motel that has certainly seen better days.
Gellman,
Really enjoyed this piece. I agree with almost everything you wrote. And, I am one who wishes the shows were more like they were in the 90’s. However, there were crooks, fakes and “bad deals” in the 90’s. But, bad economic times has brought out more crooks than ever before; and, not just in the sports card hobby, but everywhere. Just a fact of life.
I believe most of the fakes you see at shows originated from eBay sellers. Too many people are willing to take a chance if they think they can turn it over and make money. Many of these small show dealers are just not knowledgeable. They bought it from someone, who bought it from someone, who bought it on eBay.
And, I must comment on the the “old people” who frequent shows, because I am one of them. We “old people” do use eBay. However, vintage collectors who don’t want to buy graded cards, want to examine cards first hand because they have too often been disappointed with their purchases on eBay. Almost 100% of the time, the seller of a vintage card believes their card is in better condition than the buyer of the card.
The only show worth attending is the National and even that is becoming stale.
A card show is only as good as the dealers manning the tables, and these days there aren’t too many quality dealers still around.
That said, there is still a role for well produced card shows simply because there are many, many cards and memorabilia that never make it on to Ebay (both because of Ebay fees and the time it takes to put listings together). Tri-Star’s shows, for example are usually excellent. Unfortunately, they only do them in a few cities a few times a year. They even dropped the traditional Labor Day show in San Francisco this year.
The region I live in (the Pacific Northwest) hasn’t had a decent show in 10+ years…
I’ve definitely had experiences that replicate yours, but I’ve also had a number of very good show experiences. . . Anyway — lately I’ve been wondering if the recent changes to the IRS reporting rules for Paypal and the high eBay fees are going to push more small dealers off of eBay and on to shows.
With eBay/Paypal fees averaging out at over 10% for occasional sellers it is getting more and more attractive to pay the table fee at a small show. The trick is going to be getting more buyers in the doors.