Panini posted their new policy on box pricing, and I could not be more disgusted at the way they are deciding to handle box pricing and everything associated with their new minimum advertised policy. If you read over their statement from the industry summit going down in vegas this week, you will get the idea that they are trying to fix a “problem” in the industry in completely the wrong way. The reason I say “problem” and not problem, is because I dont really see why they are focusing so much energy on a failing arm of the hobby, all while taking away from the one part that is doing more great things than ever could have been expected. Online retailers and internet storefronts have driven hobby sales for the last few years, there is no way of denying that. Like just about every other industry on the planet, the internet is the new frontier for card sales, and for some reason, Panini doesnt feel like this is something that should be embraced. Instead, they are making this year the year of the hobby shop, something that is completely the opposite of what should be done.
The two most important things they are trying to roll out are a minimum pricing and a week long delay of new product for all non-card shop retailers. Basically, if you want to buy a product online, you will have to buy at a price that cannot drop below a certain level, and you will have to wait up to 7 days before it is even available to the online buying public. Forget that products from every company usually tank as new products are released, and that tons of any product run are opened in the first seven days, Panini wants you to go find a shop nearby that sells it, and pay whatever markup the store owner feels fit to charge. Considering how new products uniquely perform on the secondary market upon release, I cant even think of a clever analogy for how ridiculous this new policy is.
First, hobby shops are a dying breed, and for good reason. Many store owners, although good people, cant compete for more reasons than just wax prices. Ebay drives the hobby more than ever, and this WILL NEVER CHANGE. Many are also incredibly slow to adapt to new business trends, and some even refuse to submit to a new world hobby order, just because its not the way things have always been. Similarly, what I dont think Panini gets, is just how many hobby stores are available for people to shop at. For the hobby stores that still have their doors open, many opt for selling other things besides new wax, meaning that the store you can find, may not even sell what you need. Hell, thats even if you live by a store to begin with. Because so many stores have gone out of business, the access points of sale are so minimal, that its too late to force people into the stores that still exist. Now, lets say you dont live by a shop, what are you supposed to do for that initial first week of release? You are telling me you are punishing those people just because they cant access a store that sells the products at a 30-40% markup? Then, on top of it, Panini still thinks this is something they “have to” save. Why? Because 25 years ago, it was the centralized distribution method of cards? Guess what. Things have changed, and Panini is acting like they are doing some service to something that has no service to provide.
Dont get me wrong, if you own a shop, more power to you. I have no problem with shops doing business. However, the thriving shop owners are the ones understand that the internet is something to be embraced, not discriminated against. The shops that succeed integrate with internet concepts to drive business, and really dont need a policy like this to help them. They know better, they get with the times, THEY are the ones that should be praised. In addition, by giving this power back to the hobby shops that have shown themselves to be terrible at running a business, who is to say that power wont be abused? If you have 1200 shops around the nation that still do a good amount of business, and you give them a huge bay of power to swim in. Why wouldnt they pump up the price of a recently released Panini product and drop it after the internet retailers get their hands on the boxes? You have a captive demographic that has no other option, why not take advantage of it. Because they have no where else to go, they will be forced to pay the extra markup just to get their fix.
When it comes down to it, any move away from internet success is a terrible move. 1995 is not 2011, and though the hobby shop made collecting cards what it is, that isnt a reason to cripple the people who buy all of their boxes on the internet. I just cant understand why any policy would ever be in place to create this type of culture.
Here is what I would do:
1. Create quality products.
Panini has become a frequent punching bag on many growing areas of the internet because of a lack of effort in design and creativity. When the cookie cutter reigns supreme like it did for the ENTIRE 2010 Panini card calendar, and that is combined with thousands upon thousands of cards that look horrible, money is being left on the table. Its why so many Panini products sell below MSRP. A box of Rookies and Stars has no clout any time after the release of the next product because it looks like complete donkey shit. Products that sell are the products that combine amazing content AND great design. Its not one or the other. If Panini were to actually create good looking products, they would sell regardless of the venue. The fact of the matter is that good products ALWAYS sell above MSRP anyways, but because Panini puts out so many sets that blur together, the majority of them fall like rocks. If every product was driven by great content and design, a MAPP policy wouldnt even matter because of the way product price would elevate as time moved on. Right 2010 Contenders?
2. Offer an exclusive promotion/giveaway program for brick and mortar retailers
There is zero reason to limit the sales that the internet is capable of. ZERO. Its like cutting off your hand because your pinky fingernail is too long. However, by offering special promotions for those hobby retailers, you can at least get some people in the door. If the giveaway/promotion is good enough, people will make it a point to frequent the places that offer it. I have said for a long time that they should offer some sort of point redemption system, or something similar, but this could easily be taken a step further. Get people something back for their brand loyalty rather than taking away places they can buy your product at the best possible price.
3. Offer consultations for stores that are failing
Many of the stores that closed, im guessing, closed due to things outside of just the sales of wax. If Panini really wanted to save the hobby shop, they would go in and help the ones that need help. Education is not necessarily available for the people that spend their days working for the money. Therefore, education is the key. Show them how to use social media, encourage collectors to get involved in the promotion, offer ideas for marketing and sales. How many of you know the old curmudgeon shop owner that has no idea that his box of 1995 Fleer isnt worth the paper its printed on? Its not because they cant figure it out, its just that no one has taught them any updated techniques for selling sports cards.
4. Create a place to unload dated product
Over the years, I have walked into more stores that look more like wax museums than a modern retailer. I just cant understand why any shop lets product build up rather than getting rid of weak selling sets. It does NO GOOD sitting on shelves. Some have this because there is no ability to dump it in a way that gets them more money than the effort it takes to complete the dump. So, offer a marketplace or centralized area where these products can be liquidated easily. Put a ceiling on price so that it doesnt create another overpriced museum, but also give those buyers a chance to buy the old products they collect. For every card out there, someone will want it, give them a place to get it.
5. Cut out the bad apple distributors and retailers
This hobby has become sadly overrun by scammers and scheisters. In the end, the people that hurt are the end user of the product, and when the end user is hurt, they take it out on the places they buy from. By removing the shady middle men, you can easily create a better overall experience for the customer, and at the same time prevent the damage done by those with nefarious motives. This means requesting better information from the shops that sell the products, and making sure they meet standards to distribute the wares that are needed to function as a business.
I cant say enough bad things about this new scheme, as it is probably something with ulterior plans in the works. No one can be this stupid, and I have to imagine that something else is going down to drive people the way Panini is trying to drive them. I hope they fall flat on their face, because hopefully it will teach them a lesson in the long run. Online retailers should be thanked for giving manufacturers a wide landscape for their products to be sold, instead of trying to save a dinosaur that really needs to evolve or die.
The problem with online dealers like Blowout and D&A is that they are to dump wax by the cases which puts more stress on Shop owners. These people need to make a living too and it’s not right that Blowout can cut their throats to make a buck.
Plus, you hate Panini so why would you care how they distribute their product?
hobby shops don’t work because their prices are too high on everything… they often have no customer service, and their selection is slim at best.
Here is why hobby shops no longer work. Because ebay is the absolute resale location, or COMC, the prices set there are by the online hobby world (a much bigger world to compete against than the 2-3 other shops in town) In the 1980’s and 90’s the only place you could go to buy singles was the hobby shop, and if you didn’t like their price, you didn’t buy. now with a MAJOR increase in demand (every card buyer/seller in the US) the prices of singles has dropped significantly and thus the price for boxes is no longer worth the cards that come in it…
decreased buying power of the consumer is not a good thing for the hobby, and whoever thought it was a good idea, is smoking
I find this new policy to be very curious. Isn’t this similar to what Upper Deck just announced? The first problem is your #1 suggestion is clearly very subjective among collectors. I’m not into football but just looking at the design of Topps Five Star made me lust for that type of baseball product instead of the ultimate lameness that is Triple Threads & Sterling. However, it’s clear that not everyone felt this way because if they did nobody would have busted National Treasures with it’s upside down auto stickers and the miss spelling of cities on its base cards. There was also a fair amount of people on the blowout forums that felt that Topps Five Star was garbage and that National Treasures was the winner. Either way, whatever you feel constitutes a “quality product” I this policy is stupid and it’s clear that there are ways around this as blowout is building a “retail” store.
I, for one, absolutely love this new sales scheme! Well, because it means these assbags will go out of business faster, of course!
Can’t say I know too many people who are so impatient they’ll spend 35%+ to get boxes/cases from a shop 7 days early. That alone ought to bury the few remaining stores under so much (unreturnable) product they’ll be out of business in no time! Then what? They’ll announce product release dates and they won’t have anyone to ship it to for 7 days! Hahahaa! I. Can’t. Wait…
First of all I am a very patient person so waiting a week for the wax box to be available to me is no problem at all, so this policy only means that good things come to those who wait.
Second, I have been a collector/seller in this hobby all my life, I have found that running a hobby shop is not that hard if you listen to your people, I might not have Blake Griffin but if I had two or more people wanting Blake Griffin then I going to start seeing if I can carry Blake Griffin, it’s not science it’s good business I went to a card show the other weekend and people where amazed at the cards I was selling, and would tell there is nothing amazing about it I just carry that people want. People will pay good money for quality product. In these times this hobby has become a hobby of people that have expenable income….sellers have a hard time with that, beacuse every seller wants to make maxium profits with single auto (i.e. Bradford) or look to beckett to drive thier prices, which is good but if you’re selling a 100 card (Beckett price) for 100 when on eBay it sells for 70-80 chances are your missing that sell.
I agree 100% gellman I have been to a lot of card shops and they always have tons of old worthless cards that sit their and I’m like dam that’s wasted money their someone might treasure that collection, but for you 10 bucks is 10 bucks more than you had before that’s what I say…
I believe that the Card company should get together and start a eBay auction site that caters only to sports cards and memobilia that way the companies can monitor thew cards and weed out the fakes, only the companies know what is truly a fake and what is not so let them do that. For memorabilia we have great auction compaines like vintage authentics, MEARS, and grey flannel to name a few they should go in on this too. No offense to eBay but there needs to be a card only wesite that is sponsered and backed by the card/auction companies themselves.
This hobby can be a great expenice for everyone I get tons of emails of customer that cherish their memorabilia send pics of display and are returning customers.
Honeslty if the card compaines think this is what is going to help hobby stores then more power to them, not my lost my business does good if a product is late or not, and I dont rely on just the sells of wax boxes to run my small hobby business I rely on my products, prices and specials.
It seems to me that the single biggest factor has been ignored: price. The hobby products no longer cater to kids: instead they focus on adult collectors. I’m perfectly fine with that; however, that fact cuts out most people under 16.
As a married man I simply cannot justify spending $100 on a box of cards to my wife. She doesn’t care about cards and never will. I’ve stopped buying boxes and I’m willing to bet I’m not the only collector who has run into this issue. In fact, the guy that runs my local hobby shop jokes about loosing half of his clients to marriage. In short, the price point rules out the young, and the old that have other financial priorities.
Another angle to consider is that if the average box price was less, then the difference between hobby shops and online pricing wouldn’t be as great. Right now a $100 box online is $125 at the hobby shop. If the box prices were closer to $50 online and $62 (tax included) at the LCS I would be much more inclined to just go to the LCS. By the time you add shipping to the online price the difference in price is only a few dollars and I’m more than willing to swallow that cost so that I can have the box the moment I want it. I’m not going to search the internet to find the best price so that I can save a couple of bucks. On top of that, the lower price is much easier for me to justify to my wife.
I’m not suggesting Panini just cut the cost of their products in half: they’ve got to make their money too. I think the solution is simply to change the product configurations. Instead of four hits, give me two. Cut back on the parallels (which would give them value again). Give me fewer packs per box… after all, sports cards really isn’t about building sets anymore.
I think the problem has less to do with the distribution chain and more to do with the manufacturers not adjusting their products and price points to better fit the market.
As a side note, I do just fine financially. Its not that I don’t have the money to buy the products at their current price point. Its just that a $1,200 table saw is much easier for me to justify to myself and my wife than $100 box of cards that may not have any value in it.
Don’t forget the $15-20 worth of tax that gets added, which is about the price of selling one of your ‘hits’. Also at idea #4. One shop owner around me has HUNDREDS of old boxes lying around and his reason for not selling is “Well, someone will buy them eventually, and I have the room to store them, so why give them away”…. like the 1996 donruss box is getting more valuable
Dont worry Gellman…Panini just slit their own wrist with this new policy…
I agree with what was said earlier about the cost of boxes being cut as well as the hits. I feel like perhaps Topps Chrome comes closest to hitting that market but how many worthless boxes of Panini are 100+ for a lot of useless cards and a couple hits that may or may not have value?
Also, if there are people still unsure about the particular pros and cons to buying a panini product compared with something else, this policy is just one more thing working against them regardless of design quality and secondary value.
Mike, that shop owner would not be in pa would he.
i dont think this will help hobby shops OR online retailers. in the end, i think it will drive more people from the hobby. Hobby shop owners are mostly idiots who have absolutely no business sense whatsover (see examples above re:storing 15 year old worthless boxes assuming they will sell. who hasn’t seen 18 shop owners who do the same thing?) so not only are collectors who are already paying way to much for a box of worthless cardboard not going to flock to the shops to pay even higher prices in the first 7 days, you can bet that online sales are going to be hurt largely by the delay and the fact that a price floor is going to reduce any competition in that market and still result in the boxes being overpriced.
think about this too, when a product is a dud, dave and adam’s and whoever else, lower the price big time, even if it means taking a hit because they don’t want to hold onto it. A collector like myself may take a shot at a couple crappy boxes of Panini Epix for 50 bucks a piece, but for a price floor of, say $75? No way.
I think Panini is WAY out of touch with the industry. I don’t know if it’s b/c the company originated in a different market (Europe) before buying Donruss or that they are stuck in 1995.
Their card design, quality control and distribution model all sucks.
If they want to make a living they needs to evolve. Why would I pay more when I can get the same thing cheaper online?
I agree that online is here to stay. I look at the prices of boxes and singles on Ebay and, honestly, I don’t know how anybody can make a living in a brick and mortar hobby shop considering the overhead of rent, heat, lights, etc.
Having said that, why don’t the card companies just embrace the Internet and realize that they could sell directly to the customer, either through Ebay or on their own websites? It’s not hard to add the ability to ship single boxes to your existing facility. D&A, Blowout, et al don’t ad any value in the supply chain for this product. They are simply middle men who receive a case, break it up, and sell it.
Panini’s product is weak–I get that (not sure they do, but that’s another story). But if they came out tomorrow and said they are going to sell directly to the public, my guess is they could increase their profit margins by selling directly to the end customer. And, even if the price was the exact same for the end user, I would buy from the company because I don’t have to worry about whether an online seller damaged or otherwise tampered with the box.
This is what I was saying on Twitter last night, explaining that not all of us have a legit LCS to go to and how this is essentially an indirect way of doing what Topps is doing directly: pushing people to retail. I was told by some Panini employee who I’d never before seen a tweet from that this is “not true.” That’s all he said. Two words. No explanation. No listening to logic or willingness to acknowledge the large segment of the market that doesn’t have access to a real hobby shop that gets new product within the first week of release. Oh well, the card stores are happy and they’re the “life blood of the industry.” Here all this time I thought collectors were the lifeblood of the industry, because someone has to actually end up with all this junk and, you know, spend their money at these hallowed brick and mortar shops. Guess I was wrong.
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like most things it’s simple economics at play here. An lcs can’t compete with ebay because they size of markets. As a canseco collector I see very high prices for his cards on ebay as there are essentially 10 or less of us bidding on his cards with feverous clicks. Try charging those prices at a lcs and people will laugh. Canseco cards don’t have the same maximum value outside of that large market.
lcs-es can’t compete and panini needs to understand that. Besides that I don’t have a card store in a 50 miles radius from where I live.
And more manufacturers to offer for collectors a better panel of cards and prices! Ebay has won the battle against the shops, that’s true. The “vengence” of the shops? More great cards conventions to have a great number of client in a simple place, everywhere in th country.
Well put re: price and value. I stick to Topps/Bowman chrome because I really feel like you get “$50 worth” or product from a box. If you hit a decent auto and maybe a good refractor you can get most of your money back, if you want to part with them. That, to me, is a good example of pricing and putting a product together accordingly. Not every box is a “winner”, but you’re not getting raked over the coals either if you completely miss on a box of say Plates and Patches or something else $110+.
I too would be more than willing to pay a small “local” premium for the ability to walk in to a shop and pick up what I wanted when I wanted it. But, around here anyway, a box of Chrome can be have a price tag of $90-$95 on it! I can get it delivered, taxes in, for $65ish most times. I’d pay $70-$75 locally, but not $95.
And lastly, I too would like to see less hits and less paralells in boxes. Call me crazy, but I want my “rare” cards to actually be rare and have value! That’s another reason I only collect Topps…there aren’t 12 variations of the same card/picture spread out among 3-5 similarly priced sets! A Topps Chrome refractor #/150 is a LOT rarer than a Panini “refractor” #/150 because Gridiron Gear, Rookies and Stars, Certified, etc. all tend to release the same rookies in the same numbers. That’s how I feel anyway. There’s just too many copies of too many cards around to make anything but the hottest players and highest end product “rare”.
No, Ohio. But I can see how its the same everywhere.
Fairview Park by any chance?
As a hobby store owner, I am interested to see how these moves will impact my business.
Most times a product is out for a full week, the realized prices on singles is already slipping. If you are hoping for a better return on your wax investment and you are an online singles seller, I wonder if getting a first day box from a LCS will do you better than a week old online purchase.
For those of you who say that hobby shops cannot compete pricewise, please say that to the person who just bought some 10/11 Upper Deck 2 NHL boxes from me at $69 or those who can purchase 2011 Topps Heritage MLB at $79 since the day of release.
Perhaps it is time for some of you to visit your LCS again and see if they are doing the same.
I have never delivered a damaged box of cards to anyone.
I have never had a box of cards get lost to one of my buyers.
I have been able to go to bat for my customers when they do not get what their box should have delivered.
Additionally, my customers never have to wait 2 – 4 days for their box to arrive.
Mike, as we have seen from your loyal customers, you are not one that needed help. Consider yourself among the minority.
The Grenada Hills LCS is the shit! There’s no two ways about it. I think this guy should be the “Consultant” that Gellman talked about in his missive.
I buy from Baseball Card Co. and from Blowout all the time. To me it’s no big thing. If I pay say $5 to $10 more in the LCS I don’t want to go home and stab myself in the eye with an icepick. Mike has always delivered $10 worth of extra goodies, an awesome atmosphere, and great servie and advice. If Blowout has a presell that I can dig into I’ll get it, but I ALWAYS make sure I grab a box at BBC Co., because it keeps me connected to the hobby much more than reading a thousand card blogs can (except Gellman’s of course).
i consider myself lucky to have this quality of a hobby shop within 20-30 minutes of home. Others do not have it so good. In the end, buy where you like, and unless you’re really a cuttthroat investor trying to retire on flipping cards on ebay (good luck!), STOP acting like $10-$20 extra is going to lead to foreclosure of your houses. At the same time, stay away from those douchebags that markup 50% cuz they need to keep the lights on. I’ve run businesses, and that’s bullshit…if I ever had to rape a customer because I’m THAT behind on my bills, I’d quit first. Thanks for the forum, Gellman…certainly a lot of impassioned opinions here!
More power to the hobby shops!!!
I am also a hobby shop dealer and couldn’t agree more.
You don’t get to connect with the customers like you do when they walk in the door. Not to mention you can buy a single pack from a dealer without having to purchase the whole box. This give them the chance to get a big hit at fraction of the cost.
Also when my customers get a hit I offer a free penny sleeve and toploader on the spot.
I love what both Upper Deck and Panini are doing for us dealers.